Mormons vote for Mormons

Chart at Steve Sailer’s blog shows that Reuters poll shows that Romney has 87% of the Mormon vote.

Maybe not that surprising, but it shows that Mormons behave the way that anti-Semites think that Jews behave.

And no, it’s not just about Mormons voting Republican. For example, there is the prominent Democratic Mormon Representative Jim Matheson from Utah.

Comments

[Dan]

Well I wouldn't say it is pure in-group voting. Mormons are very much about:

- gun rights
- traditional marriage
- pro life
- distrust of big government
- a powerful and growing America since America is the promised land in Mormons' eyes

In light of these things, I can't imagine a sincere and typical Mormon voting for Obama anyway, since he is the opposite of all of those things.

[Doug]

Mormons vote about 85% Republican in every election. They voted 85% for McCain in 2008, and as far back as 1984 voted 84% for Reagan.

[Peter]

Blacks voting for black canidates = bad
Mormons voting for Mormon candidates = good
Am I right?

[HS: Mormons can be a little creepy. But in general, religious cults that vote Republican are a little bit better than religious cults that vote Democratic.]

[JL]

"Mormons vote about 85% Republican in every election. They voted 85% for McCain in 2008, and as far back as 1984 voted 84% for Reagan."

HS, you just got pwned.

[Anon]

Any group that has a group consciousness will vote overwhelmingly the same way.

[ice hole]

And Obama has 88% of the Muslim vote. Maybe they know something . . .

[JHP]

"Blacks voting = bad"

There, fixed that for you.

[Josh]

Mormons are overwhelmingly Republican to begin with.

Jews are predominantly Democratic. They voted 78% for Obama in the last election. A Jewish Democratic presidential candidate would probably get Jewish support up into the 80s in percentage.

[Allerious]

"Maybe not that surprising, but it shows that Mormons behave the way that anti-Semites think that Jews behave."

Erm, wait a minute: Don't Jews vote Democratic in approximately the same percentages, thereby making those anti-semites factually correct?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/u-s-elections-2012/american-jewish-voting-patterns-are-major-obstacle-for-hopeful-republicans-in-2012-1.450269

Excerpts:
"Between 1972-1988, Republican candidates garnered 31%-37% of the Jewish vote, but in 1992 the Jewish Republican vote dropped precipitously to 15% and in the ensuing 4 presidential elections has only slowly climbed to the 23% that John McCain received in 2008.
...
Interestingly, Jewish support for Democratic candidates is higher and more stable in Congressional elections than in Presidential elections, running consistently close to 80%. 60% of American Jews identify as Democrats, compared to only 15% who identify as Republicans. And Jews, living up to their image, have become more liberal in recent years than they were a few decades ago, and are the most consistently liberal group in American politics, with well over 40% of those questioned in exit polls in the past three elections identifying as liberals."

So where is the hidden contingent of conservative Jews in American politics, HS? I think you're one of only a handful.

[HS: But they vote for Democrats because they like the Democratic party and NOT because the candidates are Jewish or even because the Democratic Party likes Jews. Obaba, who grew up Muslim, obviously secretly hates Jews, but Jews vote for him anyway because they vote against their own interests in favor of ideology. On the other hand, Jews in Brooklyn did vote for the Republican Catholic candiate over the Democratice Jewish candiate in the special election to replace Anthony Weiner.]

[Jehu]

Mormons have their own internal mutual aid network, and it works. Why would they want to pay for another welfare state---that doesn't?

[Camlost]

Isn't Harry Reid a Mormon?

[Peter A]

"Obaba, who grew up Muslim,"

He never grew up Muslim. He was a kid in Indonesia, where the muslim kids weren't particularly nice to him. I know people who went to Punahou with him - in high school Barry was a pot smoking slacker who was a little too full of himself, but not muslim in any way. Obama purposely chose a "black" identity and a black nationalist Christian church long before he had any realistic hope of becoming President. Since the Muslim father figures in his life were uniformly dicks, Obama deep down probably resents Muslims.

[Anon]

Jews will become Republicans once the Democrats can get more money from Muslim Americans and don't need Jewish money anymore. Then they can throw Israel under the bus as they desire. The hardcore leftists who increasingly control the Democratic party hate Israel and all leftist enclaves pass anti-Israel measures and boycotts.

[asdf]

Mormons are people trying to preserve 1950s style white America. So its no surprise they vote republican. Its also not a surprise that a pre-60s style democrat could win in Utah. Try to remember that democrats used to be the party of working class white people until they turned on them for minorities in the 60s.

[Half Canadian]

I don't think your Matheson link goes to where you intend it to. RCPs has this:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/house/ut/utah_4th_district_love_vs_matheson-3042.html

But given that Mia Love is also a Mormon, its really doesn't illustrate your point.

Also, Jim Matheson's prior district in Utah had the lowest proportion of Mormons out of the three districts (Utah was awarded a 4th district after the 2010 census). After redistricting, he chose this district, even though he doesn't live in it, because it purportedly had more Democrats than the other three.

[MC]

"And no, it’s not just about Mormons voting Republican. For example, there is the prominent Democratic Mormon Representative Jim Matheson from Utah."

65% of all Utahns, and probably 80% of white Utahns, are Mormon. So if they ever voted for a Democrat, they would be a Mormon democrat. So the fact that Jim Matheson is Mormon proves bupkus.

Fact is, everyone votes for Mormons because we're awesome. That's why you're voting for Romney, isn't it?

[WJ]

That's hard to really measure since Mormons are overhwelmingly Republican anyway, just as it's hard to say that Jews voted for Gore/Lieberman in 2000 because Lieberman was Jewish, or that blacks voted for Obama in '08 because he was black. The respective candidates all belonged to parties their co-ethnic/co-religionists leaned (heavily) towards anyway.

Mormons, Democrats included, are shifted to the right on the ideological spectrum. There are ample reasons why a person on the far left is unlikely to be a Mormon, so even a Mormon Democrat is going to be a fairly conservative one - one more amenable to voting for Romney over Obama even if he wasn't Mormon. So you shouldn't be surprised to see Utah go more Republican than it did in 2008, when the GOP had a lousy nominee and a very bad reputation thanks to the economic collapse.

OTOH, blacks this year will still probably vote for Obama at higher rates than they voted for Clinton in '96, despite the fact that Obama's a SCOAMF.

FWIW, I think Mormons are definitely excited about having a Mormon president, but that's also perfectly understandable. Mormons are not overrepresnted in the halls of power to nearly the extent that Jews are. There has never been a Mormon Supreme Court justice, for example, while there are currently three Jews on the SCOTUS, and about 140 Jewish billionaires on the Forbes 400. So you have to look at it in context.

[WJ]

"HS: But they vote for Democrats because they like the Democratic party and NOT because the candidates are Jewish or even because the Democratic Party likes Jews."

In theory. I don't think the Jewish community can claim to have suffered much under the policies of either party. Their share of the Forbes 400 membership has risen from about 23% in the early 80s to over 35% today as, conveniently, the Democratic Party has become more amenable to measures like eliminating the "death tax." Despite a Jewish population shrinking as a share of the total there are probably more Jews in the House, Senate(~12), Supreme Court(3 out of 9), Federal Reserve Board, etc. than ever before - many on the latter two appointed by Barack Obama.

The supposedly anti-Jewish Democrats have never made any real effort to abandon Israel or reduce the amount of foreign aid it receives; they have never genuinely tried to rein in the finance industry, cut Hollywood's generous financial breaks, or applied the sorts of onerous anti-discrimination measures to Hollywood which they apply to more mundane but less Jewish industries. Dems have supported laws granting generous immigration advantages to Russian Jews. Not coincidentally, the industries the Dem Party hates most are the ones least dominated by Jews.

Jews have not been harmed by Dem policies like forced integration and AA nearly to the same extent as non-Jewish whites are. Jews are about 2 SDs above blacks in intelligence, while non-Jewish whites only about 1 SD above. Jews can thus support integration while their higher incomes, intelligence, and group cohesiveness assure they won't really be affected by it in reality.

Supporting a Dem Party that hates white goys may give them a warm, fuzzy feeling inside that cost them very little in real terms. By breaking up and destabilizing white communities it may actually have helped Jewish interests.

[HS: The way anti-Semites count Jews, the Jewish population is growing, because they count someone half-Jewish or quarter-Jewish as Jewish, even if the people they are counting don't even self-identify as Jewish.

As I've previously estimated, about 5% of the white population in the United States is Jewish enough to qualify for Aliyah to Israel. So it's not surprising at all that you see a lot of "Jews" in important position given higher average Jewish IQ. No conspiracy. Just HBD + more Jews than you think there are.]

[WJ]

I'll add to my prior comment this: Jews as Democrats may support affirmative action, quotas, and set-asides for minorities in the name of "equality." But if Jews were broken out as a separate race that support would immediately evaporate. Their support for equality is delusional at best, self-serving at worst.

[HS: Jews don't think of themselves as a separate race, they think of themselves as white. Only a tiny (but very vocal on the internet) number of anti-Semites think Jews are a different race.]

[WJ]

1) No allegations of a conspiracy, but there definitely is a higher degree of group cohesion than for "whites," and probably even for Mormons. Jewish is both an ethnicity and a religion. Mormon is just a religion that proseltyes pretty aggressively.

[HS: Walk around Utah and you willl see that all Mormons are the same race. More racially homogenous than Jews.]

2) Not all groups subject to quotas are races. Hispanics aren't a race. Certain groups have been broken out from others for quota purposes because they are thought of as underrepresented. It would make as much sense to separate Jews for these purposes as it does to separate Hispanics.

3) My point wasn't that Jews should be broken out for the purposes of equality. My point was merely that Jews would never support quotas if they were. As I noted above, it's a cost-free way to feel warm and fuzzy inside.

[asdf]

BTW, I recently did a whole lot of information gathering on Mormons. I was very curious given their positive statistical outcomes and given that we may have a Mormon president soon. Here are my conclusions.

1) The Mormon church takes religion very seriously. Sunday mass is three hours and your expected to wear your Sunday best. It is one hour of classic style mass, one hour of bible study, and one our of single gender study.

2) The family is the center of Mormon church life. More kids = higher status in the Mormon community, so long as you can financially support them. The two guys I spoke to came from families of 5 and 6 kids respectively.

3) If your looking to wife up, especially to a young virgin bride, the Mormon church seems the place to go. I remember when my HS friend wanted to wife up young so he became an orthodox Jew and they found him a woman. This seems similar.

4) I think the no alcohol rule helps keep prole Mormons in line. Personally I'd consider the no coffee/tea rule a deal breaker. Apparently, the church elders issue rules on this stuff all the time and change the rules all the time.

5) Joseph Smith was clearly a crazy cult charlatan, and I think the same is true of the current church elders. This is one reason I doubt it will retain its unique values while going mainstream (which the church elders want because it means more money and power for them). Church elders are routinely willing to change church doctrine to increase membership.

6) The Book of Mormon is nuts, and yes qualitatively more nuts then you think any other religion is.

7) It seems that the church will kick people out for really bad sins, and if you ever decide to leave the church they shun you.

8) There are lots of other cult signs, like the fact that when I asked the missionaries if they or anyone else ever disliked anything in or about the church they said everyone loved it and there were no problems at all ever(which is crazy).

9) The two young men that came by were exceedingly nice. They displayed some of the naivety I would expect from people of that age, but they were also generally intelligent.

[destructure]

"Maybe not that surprising, but it shows that Mormons behave the way that anti-Semites think that Jews behave." -- HS

Not at all. If Mormons behaved the way "anti-semites" thought Jews behave then Mormons would vote Democrat and stick it to white gentiles whilst seeking their own interests. Not saying Jews are doing that. Just saying that would be what Mormons would do if they behaved the way "anti-semites" thought Jews behave.

My guess is that Mormons vote Republican for the same reasons Evangelicals and Orthodox Jews do -- they hold strong conservative religious convictions. No doubt Mormons are voting Republican in larger numbers this year. Then, again, EVERY white demographic is voting Republican in larger numbers this year. I'll bet liberals are voting Republican in higher numbers this year too. LOL!

Now, blacks are still going to vote Obama in higher numbers than normal IN SPITE OF THE FACT that blacks are as conservative on most issues as the average Republican. That's because blacks always go racial.

...

"Jews don't think of themselves as a separate race, they think of themselves as white." -- HS

I agree. Jews view themselves as completely white. That's probably because they are completely white. But some place more emphasis on ethnicity and religion so many also view themselves as ~different~ from other whites as well. A lot of white christians vote republican so some of the LESS religious Jews probably vote Democrat out of antipathy. Of course, Jews also tend to be more urban and urban whites are also heavily democrat. Except for the orthodox jews who tend to have very strong conservative religious convictions as I mentioned earlier.

At any rate, this is the "model" that I'm working with.

[destructure]

I forgot to mention I agree that Jewish Democrats are voting against their own interests.

[needname]

"Jews don't think of themselves as a separate race, they think of themselves as white."

Come on HS, you really think that Jews see themselves as completely indistinguishable from WASPs?

Yes, almost all Jews consider themselves white if asked for what race they are, but they see themselves as primarily Jewish if speaking in general terms of race and ethnicity.

Take Mike Wallace from 60 Minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s&feature=player_embedded

[HS: Jews think of themselves as Jewish the way Italians think of themselves as Italians or Irish think of themselves as Irish. Does this mean that Irish are not white?]

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"My guess is that Mormons vote Republican for the same reasons Evangelicals and Orthodox Jews do -- "

Orthodox Jews are more overtly hostile to NAMs than Mormons. I recall a NYTimes article describing how Orthodox Jews were putting the screws to blacks and the Latinos by pulling funding away from their schools and giving it to Orthodox dominated schools in the NY region despite blacks and Hispanics being 85% of the school district students.

Russian and Israeli Jewish immigrants are also hostile to blacks and Hispanics.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"[HS: The way anti-Semites count Jews, the Jewish population is growing, because they count someone half-Jewish or quarter-Jewish as Jewish, even if the people they are counting don't even self-identify as Jewish.

As I've previously estimated, about 5% of the white population in the United States is Jewish enough to qualify for Aliyah to Israel. So it's not surprising at all that you see a lot of "Jews" in important position given higher average Jewish IQ. No conspiracy. Just HBD + more Jews than you think there are.]"

I know that the "35% of Forbes 400" is Jewish is a deceptive statistic.

I know that two of the top 20 on the list, Steve Ballmer and Larry Page, are half Jewish. Ballmer is half Swiss and Page is half generic Anglo American.

But they were counted as fully Jewish to deceptively undercount Northern Europeans and overcount full Jews.

I'm not sure if Linkedin CEO Jeffrey Weiner is on the list yet, but Jeff Weiner is also a half Jew.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"[HS: Jews think of themselves as Jewish the way Italians think of themselves as Italians or Irish think of themselves as Irish. Does this mean that Irish are not white?]"

All ethnic whites bring up their ethnicity when asked, but they'd look at you in disbelief if you told them they're ethnic white group doesn't fall under the overall category of white.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

One other point, ethnic whites in the Northeast tend to be much more anti-NAM than non-Southern Anglo-Americans even if they are Democrats. Prole ethnic white police officers in the North keep the minorities on a tight leash and the level of voluntary racial segregation in cities like Boston would have impressed Bull Connor.

The Northeast, which has the largest concentration of ethnic whites, also has one of the lowest rates of interracial marriage in the US.

[DaveinHackensack]

"[HS: But they vote for Democrats because they like the Democratic party and NOT because the candidates are Jewish..."

In other words, Jews vote for Democrats for the same reason blacks vote for Democrats, contra your previous post that blacks vote in such high percentages for Obama solely because he's black (almost as large a percentage of blacks would vote for a non-black Democratic candidate).

[HS: Blacks vote for Democrats because they GIVE them stuff like welfare and affirmative action. Jews vote for Democrats because they are deluded into thinking it's the moral thing to do and not because Democrats do anything for Jews.]

[JL]

"HS: Blacks vote for Democrats because they GIVE them stuff like welfare and affirmative action. Jews vote for Democrats because they are deluded into thinking it's the moral thing to do and not because Democrats do anything for Jews."

Jews vote for Democrats because Democrats are the anti-conservative anti-white party, and Jews are much less scared of blacks than of white conservatives. The worst that blacks can do is to mug and kill individual Jews, whereas their entire extended families may get killed by white conservatives one day.

[HS: You are violating the rule of Occam's Razor by assigning a complex reason for Jews voting Democratic, a conspiracy to weaken "whites," when it's a lot easier to assign it to the simpler explanation of white guilt and SWPLness, the same reason why white gentiles vote Democratic. It's not clear that elite white gentiles in New York City are much more Republican than Jews in New York City.

For Jews to be aware that Blacks lack the IQ to coordinate and enact effective anti-Jewish progroms would mean Jews would have to secretly be aware of HBD, and trust me, they really believe the HBD-denialist Koolaid.]

[Dan]

"Jews would have to secretly be aware of HBD, and trust me, they really believe the HBD-denialist Koolaid."

I am not so sure. Every Jewish person takes pride in the extraordinary level of Jewish accomplishment in intellectual pursuits. It is practically the Jewish national sport that, whenever someone achieves something of note, to try to discover that they had Jewish ancestry somewhere.

To be HBD-denialist is to believe that the average Jewish person is of the same IQ as the average goy. I doubt most Jewish people believe that.

[HS: Jews, just like elite gentiles, believe that prole whites are too lazy to do the right thing like get good grades in high school and then go to a good college. That's all they believe.

Jewish pride in Jewish accomplishment comes from a Jewish inferiority complex about being left out of all the Christmas fun.]

[Larry, San Francisco]

I don't think Jews differ much from liberal Protestants except for being a bit more philanthropic and a lot less discrete. Jews take pride in their success and in their gut do feel Jews are better (but what group doesn't) . However, most believe in the psychic unity of man. When I talk to my Jewish relatives about differences between groups they attribute differences to environmental or racism.

[theakinet]

Related:

"Big Tom Sullivan and my father voted for the party that represented their interests, but "interests" meant to them something tangible...Judged by this standard, blacks may be the only sane voters left in America. Most of the rest of us vote our interests, but they are largely symbolic ones."

Neil Postman "Amusing Ourselves to Death"

I don't think Latino citizens vote their interests. They should oppose mass, low-skill migration in order to raise their wages and reduce their 9.9% unemployment rate. They could get visas for family via family reunification.

[Anthony]

Jews vote Democrat because the Republican Party is the "Christian" party. If evangelical Christians had gone Democrat, leaving Republicans as the party of the wealthy and the secular, Jews would be Republicans.

[not too late]

"Jews will become Republicans once the Democrats can get more money from Muslim Americans and don't need Jewish money anymore. Then they can throw Israel under the bus as they desire. The hardcore leftists who increasingly control the Democratic party hate Israel and all leftist enclaves pass anti-Israel measures and boycotts."

So do Jews stay in the democrat party to keep it from going full blown anti-Israel? It is not like they have to worry about the Republicans going anti-Israel any time soon. Too many weird fundies that are literally religiously pro-Israel.

[HS: I have never met a Jew who claims to be a card-carrying Democrat only so they can influence primaries but then vote Republican in elections. This is just a fantasy.

Jews are Democratic because they fear Christianity and Republicans are the Christian party. I explained this before:

http://www.halfsigma.com/2006/11/why_jews_fear_c.html ]

[MC]

"HS: Walk around Utah and you willl see that all Mormons are the same race. More racially homogenous than Jews."

How can you tell that the non-whites you see in Utah are non-Mormon just by "walking around"? There are lots of polynesian and hispanic mormons in Utah.

[HS: I've never been to Utah, but all the Mormons I knew in Arizona were white, and furthermore the religious Mormons have a certain LOOK about them. You can tell.]

[WJ]

"Jews don't think of themselves as a separate race, they think of themselves as white." -- HS

Truth is I don't think most whites, being an overwhelming majority in the US, think of themselves primarily as white. They think of themselves as gay or lesbian; as Mormon, Catholic, Jewish, Baptist, or Jehovah's Witness; as an artist or environmentalist or feminist or porgressive or government employee; as Irish, Italian, Polish, or (again) Jewish. "White" is not an identity for most white Americans. So while Jews may see themselves as white, it is pretty much irrelevant - they, like so many other groups of whites, separate themselves as separate, different, distinct, and better than the bulk of white humanity.

"I forgot to mention I agree that Jewish Democrats are voting against their own interests."

Jews voting for Democrats are, in many ways, voting against their own interests, but they don't think they are. Mass immigration will destroy and impoverish this country, and it will harm Jews every bit as much as other whites. The only white countries that might manage to survive or reverse the damage caused by mass, non-white immigration are European countries that are not home to a lot of Jews - Germany, for example.

[HS: This is a non-sequitur. There aren't a lot of Jews in any European country anymore, and the majority of immigrants to Germany are from Turkey, and people from Turkey are white: http://www.halfsigma.com/2010/12/are-turks-white.html]

[WJ]

"HS: Walk around Utah and you willl see that all Mormons are the same race. More racially homogenous than Jews."

Having lived in Utah and grown up Mormon I can assure you that they are not. Having attended a few bar/bat mitzvahs where the only non-whites were servers, I can assure you that Mormons are more racially diverse than Jews; and that Mormons, unlike Jews, make a huge effort to convert non-whites to the fold. A large percentage of Mormon missionaries in the United States are now trained in Spanish, and focus pretty intently on converting Hispanics.

** "HS: I've never been to Utah, but all the Mormons I knew in Arizona were white..." **

Pauline Kael is giving you the thumbs up from the grave. Just because the Mormons you lived with and/or worked around were white doesn't mean that all Mormons are white.

[HS: Jews don't convert people because historically the Christians in Europe would have burned Jews at the stake for trying to convert Christians. Jews were only able to survive by keeping a low profile. This is another case of assigning some evil conspiracy to a Jewish practice that was actually forced on them by anti-Semitic goyim.]

[WJ]

But anyway, all this has been a diversion from your initial post: "that Mormons behave the way that anti-Semites think that Jews behave."

The only data I found re: recent Mormon voting behavior (granted I didn't spend a long time looking) is that in 2006 (a bad year for Republicans) Mormons voted about 80% Republican, which is about where it's been for a long time. So 87% of the Mormon vote going for Romney means that about a third of those not already Republican were swayed either by Romney's Mormonism or by Obama's bloody awfulness, or possibly both.

A better source would be primary elections, where party preference is controlled for. In 2008 it appears that about 90% of the black vote went for Obama over Clinton. That does not have an easy explanation, nor does the fact that Utah Republicans (overwhelmingly Mormon) went 89.5% for Romney in 2008 and 93.1% for Romney in 2012. Unfortunately there is no comparable Jewish, Democratic presidential contender to use for a comparison.

Personally if I were Jewish I don't think I would care for a Jewish president. Ethnic and/or religious Jews were THE dominant force in the Clinton Administration: Cohen at Defense, Albright at State, Rubin and Summers at Treasury, Reich at Labor, Gilman at Agriculture, Sandy "Burglar" Berger at NSA, Deutch at the CIA, etc.; both his Supreme Court appointees, Breyer and Ginsburg, were Jewish; and probably over half his appointments to the Federal Reserve Board were Jewish, including Greenspan, whom he reappointed to the chairmanship.

Would you give up all that just to have the guy at the top? I probably wouldn't. A Jewish president wouldn't have gotten away with it, but under Clinton anyone who complained would have been written off as an anti-Semite. If Mitt Romney's cabinet has more than two Mormons (and more than one in the big four posts) he'll catch hell, and if Mitt wants to appoint a Mormon to SOCTUS (the first Mormon ever) he better hope he gets at least two SOCTUS retirees, 'cause he won't get away with making his first SCOTUS appointee Mormon.

[WJ]

"Jews don't convert people because historically the Christians in Europe would have burned Jews at the stake for trying to convert Christians."

Right, Jews in America in 2012 fear being burned at the stake.

[HS: Jews changed their religion to avoid being burned at the stake by Christians, and those changes remained part of the religion. It hasn't been every long since Jews have had religious freedom. Just 70 years ago, Jews were being rounded up and massacred in Europe.

Maybe in another hundred years or so, those Jews that remain will be more proactive in converting gentiles.]

"This is a non-sequitur. There aren't a lot of Jews in any European country anymore, and the majority of immigrants to Germany are from Turkey, and people from Turkey are white."

How a non-sequitur? My point was that the only large, white countries that survive the flood of non-white immigration will be countries without a lot of Jews.

[HS: France has few Jews. Will it "survive" the massive Muslim immigration?

On the other hand, the most Jewish nation, Israel, has been kicking out non-white immigrants: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/12/us-israel-africans-idUSBRE85B0IY20120612 ]

Does Israel want to have to rely on Germany as its primary white ally?

Whether Turks are white or not is irrelevant to my point.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Jews don't convert people because historically the Christians in Europe would have burned Jews at the stake for trying to convert Christians. Jews were only able to survive by keeping a low profile. This is another case of assigning some evil conspiracy to a Jewish practice that was actually forced on them by anti-Semitic goyim."

Again, this is a waste of time even talking to the anti-Semites because no matter what Jews do, idiots like WJ will ALWAYS imagine the Jews have a secret, ulterior motive designed to harm whites, even when the policies they support also harm Jews, which is frequently the case.

Everything Jews do and say always leads them to search for hidden Jewish motivations that do not exist or can be explainable through Occam's Razor.

[JL]

"You are violating the rule of Occam's Razor by assigning a complex reason for Jews voting Democratic, a conspiracy to weaken "whites," when it's a lot easier to assign it to the simpler explanation of white guilt and SWPLness, the same reason why white gentiles vote Democratic."

What must be explained why Jews are so much more likely to vote Democrat than white gentiles. I say it's because they fear conservative whites. The average white in America grows up going to church, and will not be brought up to hate traditional Christian morality and teachings. In contrast, Jews are brought up to fear and loathe Christianity, as you yourself admit, so it's very natural for Jews to reject the party of white conservatives (i.e., traditional Christians).

[HS: Jews don't "loathe" Christians, they FEAR being converted by them and thus losing their Jewish identity, and thus being genocided not by gas chambers but by delicious-tasting unkosher food and fun Christmas activities.]

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"What must be explained why Jews are so much more likely to vote Democrat than white gentiles. "

Because they are NONETHNOCENTRIC.

The Ethnocentric Jews are the most conservative.

If assimilated Jews have a group motive for being liberal then explain why the most conservative Jews, the Orthodox, Russian, and Israeli, are the most conservative. If you don't have an explanation for the right wing nature of the most clannish Jews then you have no proof of a group agenda.

[MC]

"Pauline Kael is giving you the thumbs up from the grave. Just because the Mormons you lived with and/or worked around were white doesn't mean that all Mormons are white."

+1. I was a missionary among Hispanic Mormons in AZ. Probably 5-10% of Mormon congregations in AZ are Spanish-speaking (and that doesn't count all the hispanic mormons who grew up here and don't speak Spanish), which is more than you can say for Judaism.

[destructure]

"Because they are NONETHNOCENTRIC. The Ethnocentric Jews are the most conservative." -- The Undiscovered Jew

I made that point earlier myself. But that's not to say antipathy towards white gentiles plays no role in less religious Jews voting Democrat. Even if Orthodox Jews are more ethnocentric it may be they vote Republican in spite of antipathy due to strongly conservative religious convictions. In the absence of these convictions, latent antipathy may play a role in some voting Democrat as well. Or perhaps Orthodox Jews are both more ethnocentric and less antagonistic because they're more inward looking? I don't know. I'm just speculating.

Generally speaking, religion increases group loyalty. Less religious white gentiles tend to be more critical of whites. Similarly, less religious Israeli Jews tend to be more critical of Israel. Not being in Israel, some non religious Jews manifest this as being both less pro Israel and more anti white. How much of this is anti white gentile versus simply anti white is hard to say. But there appears to be at least some who focus their anti white fervor primarily on gentiles. My impression is that those doing it tend to be less religious and often only partially Jewish.

It's ironic, then, that less religious Jews believe "Christian fundamentalists" want to slaughter them whereas less religious gentiles believe there is a "Jewish Conspiracy". While, in reality, the more religious gentiles and more religious jews are more likely to like the other -- or at least less likely to dislike the other.

***

"Jews don't convert people because historically the Christians in Europe would have burned Jews at the stake for trying to convert Christians." -- HS

You act as if we didn't know Jews have historically disowned children for marrying out. I personally know Jews who have been harassed and, in one case, disowned for doing so. They've told me themselves. Ostracizing Jews who marry out is the flip side of forbidding others to marry in. And therein lies the prohibition against proselytizing.

Don't misunderstand. It's not that I think medieval churches would have tolerated proselytism from Jews. They didn't much tolerate it from other Christian sects either. But you're trying to lay it all at the feet of "anti-Semitic goyim". Not only is that a smokescreen it's also a smear. If Jews want to keep it in the family then it's no sweat off my sack. But let's keep it real.

[HS: 1. It is my believe that Orthodox Jews don't fear being converted by Christians because they truly BELIEVE in Hashem. But secular Jews don't believe in anything, and for them being Jewish means nothing except for not being Christian, which is why they fear Christian conversion so much.

Regarding proselytizing Jews, obviously they did this once upon a time, because how else did the original Jews become Jewish if not by conversion? (Unless you believe that nonsense about Jews becoming a "might nation" while being slaves to Pharaoh).

ALL religions have to have at least one of either (1) conversion of unbelievers; or (2) very strong prohibition against children leaving the faith, otherwise the religion ceases to exist. So duh! Jews have do at least one of those things. Today they do #2, but in the distant past they also did #1. They stopped doing #1 to keep a low profile while living with a hostile Christian majority, and that change happened so long ago that Jews completely forgot why it happened.]

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@ Half Sigma

Ethincity aside, I agree with your first point that for Orthodox being Jewish mean belief in Hashem. As opposed to being Jewish for secular meaning not being Christian. But that only supports my point that some secular Jews vote Democrat due to antipathy towards gentiles.

I also agree that for a religion to continue they either have to have conversions or prohibitions against children leaving. But the two aren't mutually exclusive. Indeed, if the motive were solely religious then Jews would do both. If nothing else they would encourage the non Jewish spouse of their children to convert. And, today, some Jewish groups are starting to. But you and I both know that, rather than encourage the non Jewish spouse to convert, plenty of Jewish mothers have tried to sabotage their children's marriage. It may be religious but it's not entirely religious. It's ethno-religious.

I'm not unsympathetic to the child's dilemma. But I'm fine with the parents because you don't marry the person -- you marry their family. If the child wanted their parents to accept their spouse then they shouldn't have gone against their parents' wishes. I can understand parents wanting their children to stick with their own. So I don't have a problem with that.

But the question was why Jews don't proselytize. You want to say its because medieval churches wouldn't let them. Maybe not. But, like I said, medieval churches didn't much tolerate it from other Christian sects either. And yet there are plenty proselytizing today. So your saying that Jews don't proselytize TODAY because they were prohibited from doing so 400 years ago doesn't work.

You brought up Occam's Razor in another post. So what does Occam's Razor say about this. Do Jews not proselytize and discourage conversion because medieval churches didn't like it 400 years ago? Or do they not proselytize and discourage conversion because they're ethnocentric?

*

"Unless you believe that nonsense about Jews becoming a "might nation" while being slaves to Pharaoh" -- HS

Why would I? There's no evidence Jews were ever slaves in Egypt to start with.

[HS: Jews don't proselytize because it's not their custom. (1) Customs perpetuate for a long time even though the original reason for it is long forgotten; (2) religion doesn't have to be logical; in fact, pure logic would result in the conclusion that all religions are bogus.]

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"But that's not to say antipathy towards white gentiles plays no role in less religious Jews voting Democrat. Even if Orthodox Jews are more ethnocentric it may be they vote Republican in spite of antipathy due to strongly conservative religious convictions. In the absence of these convictions, latent antipathy may play a role in some voting Democrat as well. Or perhaps Orthodox Jews are both more ethnocentric and less antagonistic because they're more inward looking? I don't know. I'm just speculating."

The Orthodox are so focused on their own internal community that they seem indifferent to white gentiles as long as they are left alone. They only get upset at NAMs but they have good reasons to be.

As for other ethnocentric Jews that aren't as self-segregated from the gentile culture, the ethnocentric, but relatively non-religious, Russian Jews appear to link their interests directly with white gentiles, as this quote below shows about how Russian Jews (correctly) feel the United States president should be a white person:

http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/63785/what-a-country/

"Lurking behind these much-discussed reasons for Russian Jewish conservatism is the fact of deeply ingrained Russian xenophobia, which some say the nation’s Jews have internalized despite being an oppressed group themselves. This, say some, makes them more susceptible to the racial dog whistles employed by conservative politicians. Weeks before the 2008 election, Walter Ruby reported for the Jewish Week that he did not have to search Brighton Beach very hard before finding Russian-speaking Jews who subscribed to a Sarah Palin’s view of the United States; one real, one fake; one implicitly white, one not. “The president of such a great country ought to be a real American, by which I mean a white person,” one respondent told Ruby. "

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"But secular Jews don't believe in anything, and for them being Jewish means nothing except for not being Christian, which is why they fear Christian conversion so much."

"But there appears to be at least some who focus their anti white fervor primarily on gentiles. My impression is that those doing it tend to be less religious and often only partially Jewish."

Well there are plenty of atheist gentiles like Richad Dawkins are overtly hostile to Christianity.

In the case of Jews, most of this fear of conversion is directed at Evangelical Christian in particular, not Christians generally, because Evangelicals are more aggressive seeking converts. For example, it's rare to see even a very liberal Jew criticize Roman Catholicism harshly because Jews live among a lot of Catholic ethnic whites. Even Catholic evangelism is less alarming to liberal Jews because Catholics tends to be much more discreet and intellectual with their Evangelism. Even Dawkins doesn't criticize Catholicism as harshly as prole Evangelicals.

I also agree with Sigma that Orthodox Jews and more ethnocentric non-Orthodox are less concerned with Evangelical Christians because they are so devout they have little fear of losing large numbers of Orthodox to Christianity.

Less attached Jews have more reason to be concerned because their community could easily be tempted to convert under the right conditions.

The relationship between secular Jews and Evangelicals is comparable to the relationship between liberal Canadians and America. The liberal Canadians exaggerate how different Canadians are from Americans because there aren't many differences between Canada and America. The Canadians feel compelled to deny there are similarities because if they did admit there's basically no difference then they might become future states of the US and lose their "Canadian-ness".

The most ethnocentric Jews don't have this issue because they are confident in their identity.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"But the question was why Jews don't proselytize. You want to say its because medieval churches wouldn't let them. Maybe not. But, like I said, medieval churches didn't much tolerate it from other Christian sects either. And yet there are plenty proselytizing today. So your saying that Jews don't proselytize TODAY because they were prohibited from doing so 400 years ago doesn't work."

Sure it works because there's been no cultural tradition for so long to encourage proselytism.

Proselytism was outlawed by CHRISTIANS starting with the Roman Empire after Constantine adopted Christianity as the state religion and banned all conversions to any religion (including pagan ones) by penalty of death. The gentiles completely drove memory of conversion out of the Jewish cultural consciousness to the point where most modern Jews don't know Jews extensively sought converts during the age of Greek and Roman paganism (and this is where most European Jewish DNA originates) and now you're accusing Jews of not supporting something gentiles would have potentially executed them for as recently as two hundred years ago.

Given that Prosyletism was outlawed (with harsh penalties for Jews inflicted by Church authorities if they disobeyed) for close to 2000 years, it's not surprising Jewish culture still doesn't encourage conversion because Jews had no choice to but to accommodate them to the restrictions on their religion.

Late Roman Empire Jews did still try to defy the ban on conversion. That's why the Christian Romans and early Dark Age Christians had to pass a series of laws after Constantine, such as those found in the Theodosian Codes in 429 A.D., to force Jews to give up converting gentiles.

Still even Orthodox Jews will accept converts. The Orthodox even take black converts. But conversion to Orthodox Judaism is much more of a pain in the ass and involves many hours of studying. Converting to Christianity is much easier because all you have to do to join is be dunked in water and promise to obey Jesus.

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@ The Undiscovered Jew

I'm not "accusing" anyone of anything. I don't personally care if Jews proselytize or not. The issue is academic to me. While I don't dispute your facts (or greater knowledge of Jewish history) I can't accept your conclusion because it doesn't jibe with my understanding of human nature. At this point, we've all made our arguments. And though I'll continue to consider your points (I sometimes ponder for a while before changing my opinion) I'm concerned that if we continue to restate our opinions one of us might get frustrated. I'd rather that not happen. Especially since I really like Sig's blog and have agreed with nearly every comment you've made since I've started reading it.

[jay]

@WS: "Truth is I don't think most whites, being an overwhelming majority in the US, think of themselves primarily as white. "

I'm late to this party but...I agree with this statement. I've lived in various parts of these United States and it's true that groups derive identity not only from their intrinsic qualities, but from their relationships to other groups.

I'm Jewish. For myself, nothing sharpened my white consciousness more than going to heavily black schools and living in neighborhoods that are adjacent to black nabes. I have as an adult had to travel to heavily black areas...do I have to explain what that did to me and to my Jewish peers? It made us feel much more solidarity with other whites - who were also "ethnic" - Italian, Irish, etc. We didn't fool ourselves about our differences but we also felt a solidarity based on the brute fact that we were up against organized blackness. (Not to mention that the school bureaucrats, all pussies, were scared of the black kids and their potentially violent parents.)

My relatives in heavily white/Hispanic areas, don't understand my racial attitudes. They are still very Philip Roth Jewish. I find their attitudes to be absurd. They think I'm crazy.

Anyway, all of this goes to show that there is no immutable Jewish identity, independent of circumstances.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"I don't personally care if Jews proselytize or not. The issue is academic to me. While I don't dispute your facts (or greater knowledge of Jewish history) I can't accept your conclusion because it doesn't jibe with my understanding of human nature."

Sure it jibes with human nature. Humans tend to get used to religious traditions over time.

Since it's been such a long time since Jews were allowed to convert others without being penalized by Christians, it makes sense that Jews don't engage in proselytism anymore simply because they had it beaten into their heads, by Christians, that Judaism cannot convert gentiles.

Not speaking about you directly, but it's ridiculous for anti-Semites in general (not counting you as one) to blame Judaism for being a tribal religion when it was the gentiles who turned it into a closed off religion instead of the universalizing faith it was during Pagan Rome and Greece.

[IHTG]

TUJ: You might find this amusing http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/115491/americans-in-israel-vote-gop

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@ The Undiscovered Jew

Four thousand years ago everyone was tribal. Regardless, what is your personal preference right now -- do you want Judaism to be a universalizing faith? Or an exclusively ethnic one? And, if you want Judaism to be a universalizing faith, would you still want Jews to maintain a separate ethnic identity?

There's no wrong answer as far as I'm concerned. I'm just curious.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Four thousand years ago everyone was tribal."

Incorrect. Most ancient jurisdictions such as Rome, Persia, Byzantium, and the kingdoms left in the wake of Alexander were multiethnic.

But In terms of religion, the world of antiquity prior to Christianity and Islam was a free market. It was common for ancient Romans and Greeks to practice multiple religions and belong to different religious sects simultaneously. Caesar frequently named his legions after astrological symbols because he thought honoring the Zodiac would bring him victory in war.

"Regardless, what is your personal preference right now -- do you want Judaism to be a universalizing faith?"

I wouldn't object to a resurrection of proselytism.

"And, if you want Judaism to be a universalizing faith, would you still want Jews to maintain a separate ethnic identity?"

Proselytism could probably be reconciled with maintaining a separate ethnic identity. The European Imperial powers were able to both convert colonial subjects to Christianity while never even considering the possibility of changing their ethnic makeup with non-white immigrants, at least before colonial guilt.

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@ The Undiscovered Jew

I said 4000 years ago because that's when Abraham allegedly lived. Rome, Greece, Persia, Byzantium, etc didn't exist then. Ergo Judaism would have had a tribal origin. That's apparent from reading the Torah. Judaism's brief dalliance with universalism was limited and didn't occur on its own. It was a later development inspired by Alexander's quest to spread Greek culture.

"Proselytism could probably be reconciled with maintaining a separate ethnic identity." -- TUJ

In the short term but not the long. Religion is an important element in maintaining one's ethnic identity. I support ethnic conservation. So I'm not criticizing Jews for not proselytizing. Or for opposing other ethnics proselytizing them. My preference would be for others to follow their example.