Why blacks vote for Obama

There were some comments which suggest that people still don’t get this.

Back in 2010, I explained that blacks have race consciousness. When a black beats a white, at anything, it’s seen as a victory for all blacks.

The vast majority of blacks will always vote for a black candidate over a white candidate, as long as the black candidate isn’t seen as a race-traitor. Clarence Thomas probably wouldn’t get many black votes if he ran for some office because of the race traitor issue, but blacks will enthusiastically support black candidates who are total losers such as Alvin Greene or Marion Barry. Sticking it to whitey is more important than electing good government.

Obama’s only challenge in getting blacks to vote for him was to convince them that he’s one of them, something which was actually sort of difficult due to the fact that as a guy who grew up in Indonesia and in Hawaii where he attended an elite private school, he has practically nothing in common with the average black besides his skin color. But as he successfully overcame that hurdle through his authentically black activities in Chicago (and Steve Sailer explained this part of Obama’s life pretty well), he is now assured of nearly unanimous black support.

It’s as simple as that, folks. Whether his policies are any better for blacks than those of some random white politician is completely irrelevant.

Comments

[Rifleman]

But Jews are far more likely to vote for Obama than are other White people.

Jews will vote for, work for and contribute to Obama to a greater degree than will White women.

Why?

Are they trying to "stick it to" the "goyim"? the WASPS? Christian middle America?

What's in it for them?

[HS: Jews are the opposite of blacks; they vote AGAINST their own group because of higher moral principles (which may be misplaced in many cases, but nevertheless are higher-level principles).]

[Otis the Sweaty]

In Israel, almost all Ashkenazi Jews vote for parties that support African immigration and high tax rates to give free stuff to Israeli Arabs.

People can try to look for conspiracies but the fact is that Ashkenazi Jews are just terminally retarded.

[Roger]

Why can't Jews be explained by the same theory? They vote Democrat because they want to stick it to the WASPs.

[HS: And when Ashkenazi Jews in Israel vote for liberal parties that are pro-African immigration and pro-Israeli Arab, who are they sticking it to?

No, the simple explanation is that Jews have the misguided notion that helping those they are convinced are less fortunate is a higher moral principle than helping their own tribe.]

[Otis the Sweaty]

who are they sticking it to?

Sephardic and Ultra Orthodox Jews. Ashkenazi Israeli Jews hate those groups 1000x more than American Ashkenazi Jews hate white proles.

[HS: No, if they really hated the ultra-orthodox, they'd vote to make them serve in the military and cut off their welfare. They vote the way they do because of misplaced altruism and guilt about those less fortunate.]

[Otis the Sweaty]

No, if they really hated the ultra-orthodox, they'd vote to make them serve in the military and cut off their welfare

They DO vote for that, but there are more sephardic and religious Jews who vote for right wing parties that won't let them do those things.

[Arving]

What percentage of secular ashkenazi in israel vote in favor of afican immigration? Help me understand

[Mark]

Obama always has seemed to have a little bit of a problem to me. He needs to appear to be the black candidate to blacks while at the same time not appearing to be the black candidate to whites. He somehow managed that in the last election and picked up enough white votes to win. Among the people I work with, blacks are all very vociferous in their support of Obama and dislike of Romney and I feel some of the white people in my office are a little uncomfortable with that over the top support for the black candidate and enmity towards the white candidate. Obama's black supporters may be hurting their guy because their obvious antipathy towards whites is turning white voters off of voting for him again.

[lil mike]

Even if you're right, it doesn't make much difference. If blacks vote for Democrats 90% of the time, which seems the average, than it doesn't matter much if the candidate is black or not. Obama got 95% of the black vote in 2008, but that's not a huge racial margin. I suspect Obama won't get anywhere near 95% of the black vote this year. It will probably go back to the normal 90%.

[The Legendary Linda]

Netanyahu is the most important Ashkenazi Jew in Israel and he's far more anti-immigration than any national politician in America:

"On May 29th the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, said he was adding African “infiltrators” to his list of threats to the Jewish homeland. He said he shared the rioters' pain and promised to solve the problem by completing a wall along the border with Egypt. He said he would also build the world's largest detention centre—and deport all those within, starting with the South Sudanese."

http://www.economist.com/node/21556279

And I don't think Netanyahu would be in power if he lacked significant support from Ashkenazis, presumably israel's most influential demographic.

[J1]

"They vote the way they do because of misplaced altruism and guilt about those less fortunate"

They may well be truly altruistic (we'd need more information about charitible giving), but confiscating someone else's earnings and giving them to the less fortunate is not altruism. Granted, the left has great difficulty understanding this.

[The Legendary Linda]

Half sigma, if Ashkenazis (Israel's most influential ethnicity) are so pro-Arab, why does nobel peace prize winning genius jimmy Carter say Israel built an imprisonment wall through the West Bank & accused Israel of oppressing the residents of Gaza where the poverty rate is 70 percent and where the malnutrition rates resemble Sub-Saharan Africa?

I agree that Jews are on average more moral than other populations (because of their high IQ), but you overstate your case when you imply they don't behave ethnocentrically. All groups do, especially when they feel threatened.

[jef]

For a long time Kenny Hahn, a white man, was the most popular politician among blacks in Los Angeles.

[Anon E. Mouse]

Did Obama even get that much more black support than a generic white democrat would? Do black republicans get that much more (if any) black support than white republicans. Whatever happened to ceteris paribus?

[Prophet]

Of course blacks will always vote for the black candidate.The question I want answered is how do Repubs continue to get elected as America continues to become non-white? According to tribal voting standards, this means the Dems will continue to get more and more votes as time goes on.

Steve Sailer has proposed using the general animosity of different groups within the Dem party against one another (ex. blacks vs Hispanics). He thinks a strategy of trying to paint the Dem party as the "black party" would suppress Hispanics and Asians from voting for the Dems. He argues that the Repubs might not be able to get Hispanics and to a lesser extent Asians to vote Repub, then at least getting them disillusioned with the Dem party will have the effect of suppressing their voting power.

What are your thoughts?

[Liam]

Hmmmm. . .

Blacks have a 'race consciousness' issue? Funny, I guess whites never had that.

So here's a lil' something for you: Please explain the weirdness of working-class whites voting for a plutocrat like Romney. Working-class whites regularly vote against their own interests, especially if the opposing candidate is viewed as too much of an "other."

Working-class whites have nothing in common with Romney. Sure, he's white, too. But he has nothing in common with the masses of Average-Joes in the trailer parks. He comes from a background most Americans cannot comprehend, with a worldview to match.

Quit your whining. Hypocrisy is never a good look.

[Nancy Lebovitz]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-planning-first-ultra-orthodox-commando-unit.premium-1.470635

They've started drafting the ultra-orthodox.

[DaveinHackensack]

Blacks vote overwhelmingly for Democrats, not blacks per se. If the GOP nominee were Herman Cain and the Democratic incumbent were Hillary Clinton, Clinton would get ~90% of the black vote. Being black only gets Obama maybe an extra 5% of the black vote.

[Dexelpred]

I think secular Ashkenazi Jews tend to be liberal because liberalism is a civic religion, and bound up with secular Judaism. The actual policies are secondary - it is about group affiliation. Note that I'm not saying they are irrational: it is actually deeply irrational for individual voters to learn anything about political policy, given that they cannot affect it. Contrariwise, it is deeply rational to pick your group affiliation pretend-politics wisely. It's much easier to get a job in NYC if you're a D voter than an R voter, just like it's much easier to get a job in Chicago if you like the Bears.

[Drole Prole]

It seems to be a NAM and/or collectivist thing. Hispanics and Filipinos are the same way. FOB Asians also tend to vote for FOB Asians of the same ethnicity but American Born Asians are more like whites and are less likely to vote for someone just because they look like them.

Blacks are very collectivist and treat one another like family. Ditto Hispanics and Filipinos. Korean FOBS are very collectivist and most would vote for a Korean candidate, but Japanese Americans are not very collectivist and are basically white and don't care to vote in another Japanese just because a candidate is Japanese.

[IHTG]

Ashkenazi Jews in Israel aren't as leftist as the ones in America, but they still show marked tendencies in that direction. It's only the harsh realities of life in the Middle East that have dampened those tendencies.
Liberalism really is a cultural thing for Ashkenazi Jews.

[NOTA]

I think Obama as the first black president had a huge impact on a lot of blacks. Ta-Nahisi Coates wrote an excellent article describing this. While I didn't agree with a lot of Coates' characterization of opposition to Obama, I thought his writing made it very clear how big a deal it is to lots of blacks to see a competent, smart black guy in the top job, who's not visibly screwing up. And that probably drove a lot of excitement by blacks, leading to higher turnouts in 2008 and maybe this year, too. The 90% number sounds like there isn't much room for improvement, but changing the number of blacks who vote can make it a lot bigger.

[SFG]

"Blacks are very collectivist and treat one another like family. Ditto Hispanics and Filipinos. Korean FOBS are very collectivist and most would vote for a Korean candidate, but Japanese Americans are not very collectivist and are basically white and don't care to vote in another Japanese just because a candidate is Japanese."

I wonder, if they ran a Japanese candidate, what would happen. Japanese Japanese are pretty tribal, but Japanese Americans have been around for a while.

IHTG: Yeah, I think we're still living in the twentieth century, when it was the Right that wanted to kill us. I think most European Jews are more threatened by Arabs than Nazis at this point, and American Jewry is more threatened by marriage than murder.

[Ronin]

@ Liam.

Check out "A face in the crowd" starring a young Andie Griffith. As relevant today as it was fifty years ago.

[sn]

"Blacks are very collectivist and treat one another like family."

check the murder rates.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"What's in it for them?"

There's nothing in it for Jews, they're voting against their own interests just like white gentiles are.

The Ashkenazi are liberal because they are non-ethnocentric and are imitating the liberal gentile establishment.

The most ethnocentric Jews, the Orthodox and Former Soviet immigrant Jews, are more GOP than the gentile average.

The non-ethnocentric Jews become conservative when the elite is conservative

"Are they trying to "stick it to" the "goyim"? the WASPS?"

Elite WASPs like Howard Dean, the Bushes, the Rockefellers, David Souter, John Paul Stevens, the 1969-1994 Supreme Court (which had no Jews sitting as Justices on it) all support blacks and liberalism.

The WASPs haven't been conservative since Coolidge.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Why can't Jews be explained by the same theory?"

1) Because Jews aren't black.

Helping blacks doesn't help Jews because Jews anymore than gentile whites helping blacks helps gentiles.

2) According to the GSS, liberal Jews are the most non-ethnocentric group of Jews and one of the most non-ethnocentric group of whites.

Since the ethnocentric Jews, the Orthodox and Russians, vote GOP, we can conclude Jews are not pursuing a group agenda against whites and are in fact being corrupted by elite gentile political leanings.

When elite gentiles are conservative, non-ethnocentric Jews also because conservative like the British Jews in the 19th century and the old German American Jewish elites.

http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2009/12/another-measure-showing-high-jewish.html

Orthodox and Conservative Jews are the most ethnocentric of all groups.

(snip)

On the other hand, TUJ has a point that tribalism varies greatly across types of Jews. While Orthodox Jews are one full standard deviation more ethocentric than Americans of English/Welsh descent, Jews with no religious affiliation actually score a bit lower than the reference group. (Keep in mind that the N's are tiny.)

[TGGP]

Alvin Greene didn't get much support from blacks. Or anybody, really.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"I think secular Ashkenazi Jews tend to be liberal because liberalism is a civic religion, and bound up with secular Judaism. The actual policies are secondary - it is about group affiliation."

Then why are the most ethnocentric Jews more conservative than gentile whites?

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"(because of their high IQ), but you overstate your case when you imply they don't behave ethnocentrically."

Relative to Orthodox and Russian Jews, liberal Jews are much less ethnocentric.

On every measure of Jewish ethnocentrism such as intermarriage rates and tolerance of intermarriage, support for Israel, identifying as Jews ethnically or culturally, religious devotion, etc, liberal Jews score much less ethnocentric than Orthodox and FSU Jews.

Here is your link. The GSS variable used in this survey was ETHCLOSE, and as you can see, unaffiliated Jews are LESS ETHNOCENTRIC than WASP/British origin Americans:

http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2009/12/another-measure-showing-high-jewish.html

Orthodox and Conservative Jews are the most ethnocentric of all groups.

(snip)

On the other hand, TUJ has a point that tribalism varies greatly across types of Jews. While Orthodox Jews are one full standard deviation more ethocentric than Americans of English/Welsh descent, Jews with no religious affiliation actually score a bit lower than the reference group. (Keep in mind that the N's are tiny).

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"[HS: Jews are the opposite of blacks; they vote AGAINST their own group because of higher moral principles (which may be misplaced in many cases, but nevertheless are higher-level principles).]"

Supporting blacks hurts Jewish interests because Jews live near urban centers more than the white gentile average and Jews have to contend with blacks lowering their standard of living. But non-ethnocentric Jews hurt their own ethnic interests anyway because the gentile elites they socialize with are also hurting their own ethnic interests.

The reason anti-semites don't realize Jews are actually screwing themselves as much as white is because they keep imagining a conflict of interest and motivations between elite Jews and elite gentiles that doesn't exist.

If there were some sort of ethnic conflict of interest between Jews and elite gentiles, we would see differences in motivations between elite Jews like Ben Bernanke, Greenspan, and Robert Rubin and elite gentiles like Tim Geithner, Jon Corzine, and Hank Paulson.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

Sigma, if you run test GSS searches on issues related to Jewish ethnocentrism (such as approval of a family member marrying a black, approval of intermarriage generally, support for Israel, identifying with your ethnic group, etc) and compare different denominations of Jews, the Orthodox Jews and Russian Jews ALWAYS score higher on Jewish ethnocentrism than Reform and non-Affiliated Jews.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"It seems to be a NAM and/or collectivist thing. Hispanics and Filipinos are the same way."

Yes, part of the reason NAM citizenship is incompatible with Western civilization is that Western civ requires good levels of altruism, trust, and individualism.

These Western cultural characteristics are unsustainable with NAM citizenship rights because NAMs are too hostile against whites because whites are more successful.

This is why Malaysians can't coexist in an orderly society with a productive Chinese minority, the Malaysians are too unsuccessful and stupid to feel comrardiare with the Chinese. The Malaysians would probably treat the Chinese population worse if they didn't have to worry about a reaction from the Chinese mainland.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

Here are interviews with ethnocentric Orthodox Jews about why they are voting for Romney.

Most of them said they are voting for Romney because of Israel.

This is what non-Orthodox American Jews should be doing.

The Jamaican immigrants (who should be deported for sound Darwinian reasons) said they are voting for Obama:

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/im-a-jew-so-im-voting-for-romney-video/

[asdf]

Jews are an ethnic minority. They vote for anything that protects ethnic minorities. The best protection for an ethnic minority is to live in a multi-cult society because the majority can't organize.

[IHTG]

"The best protection for an ethnic minority is to live in a multi-cult society because the majority can't organize."

Yes, because multi-cult societies have historically been SO very stable and safe, right? No wars, no ethnic cleansing!

This is a white nationalist meme that really needs to die horribly.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Jews are an ethnic minority."

Jews aren't a racial minority.

They are an ethnic subset of white people and there's no actual benefit to Jews by helping non-whites anymore than there is an ethnic benefit to white gentiles who help minorities.

The genetic breakdown of Jews is 60% European (mostly ancient and most of the remainder is Anatolian Turk. In genetic tests, Jews cluster more closely to Europeans than Armenians do and hardly any white person considers Armenians to be non-white.

The relationship between Ashkenazi (and Spanish) Jews is similar to the relationship between upper caste Indians and regular Indians' the upper caste Indians are a genetically similar subset of the broader Indian population that developed a higher IQ than the surrounding population because of reproductive isolation.

"They vote for anything that protects ethnic minorities."

Helping minorities doesn't help Jews. To minorities, Jews are just another group of rich white people with a different religion.

"The best protection for an ethnic minority is to live in a multi-cult society"

1) Multiethnic societies are less safe for minority groups because they are more unstable.

2) Jews don't support immigration in polls. They aren't even the biggest political supporters of immigration, large corporations and the Catholic Church have done more to promote immigration than Jews.

3) The Jews who view themselves as the most distinct from the gentile population, the Orthodox, are also the most conservative.

If the most ethnically aware Jews are the most conservative then this means elite liberal Jews aren't acting as minorities, they are acting as assimilated members of the white gentile elite.

Why is the intermarriage rate for elite Jews so much higher than ethnocentric Orthodox Jews if the elite Jews are pursuing a group strategy.

[superdestroyer]

How is it that a thread about blacks automatically voting for Democrats (not just blacks because Steve Cohen D-Tn is an example of a white politician who represents a majority black district) turn into a thread about Jews.

The real question is what is going to happen in the future when more than 50% of the voters in the U.S. are automatic Democratic Party voters. Will the Democrats be as interested in putting blacks into district that are overwhelmingly black and letting them elect idiots such as Sheila Jackson Lee or Maxine Waters?

[asdf]

The Undiscovered Jew,

It's not that Jews want a bunch of hostile third worlders moving here. But they don't want the primary ethnic group forming a strong identity. If they do that its not long before you've got the Nazi's. The problem with killing the identity of the primary ethnic group is you also kill their ability to resist multi-cult.

[Just Speculating]

Come to NYC and you will noticed that the most racially diverse non-corporate businesses and companies are Jewishly owned.

White gentiles usually don't hire many Asians and NAMs as their staff. An educated racial minority also have a higher chance of being employed by a reform or nonreligious Jewish entity than one of their own. Of course, most of these businesses tread the SWPLdom territory. Dave Hackensack would be one of those guys.

The more ethnocentric Jews are prolish by nature, they aren't all that different in outlook from that of the working class Irish and Italians. They would never hire other races to work for them, let alone White gentiles, unless we are talking about Kosher restaurants.

[AE]

"The real question is what is going to happen in the future when more than 50% of the voters in the U.S. are automatic Democratic Party voters."
---

I think that the broad coalition that the Democratic Party has patched together is fragile. I don't really know where nonwhites can turn to, but I don't see them happily coexisting with white liberals who are condescending toward nonwhites (i.e. constantly yapping about their "white privilege" and assuming that every nonwhite person is in need of their charity) and who promote a bunch of things that nonwhites don't care about (i.e. environmentalism). Conservatives can shake things up and gain more voters if they just hold out and wait for divisions to emerge in the Democratic Party.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"But they don't want the primary ethnic group forming a strong identity. If they do that its not long before you've got the Nazi's. The problem with killing the identity of the primary ethnic group is you also kill their ability to resist multi-cult."

1) First of all, multi-cultural eventually increases racial animosity among all groups (including whites) because social, political, and economic outcomes will always be different for different races living in the same country due to different races having evolved different cognitive abilities. Multiculturalism increases the chances of racial hostility to Jews.

But put aside the effect multiculturalism on whites.

Multi-cult still doesn't serve a Jewish ethnic advantage because, as multi-cult currently operates, *only* one ethnicity, whites, are encouraged to abandon their ethnic identity.

The other imported non-Jewish groups are free to practice ethnic identity politics which is unhelpful to Jews because the non-whites view Jews as a wealthier and nerdier subgroup of white people.

Multicult would only serve as an "anti-pogrom" advantage if non-white groups were pressured to give up their ethnic identity.

There's no advantage to avoiding persecution by whites only to be persecuted by politically irritable non-whites who drive down the standard of living in urban areas and wealthy suburban areas where Jews live, commit crimes against Jews, and make it harder for secular Jews to find white schools to put their children in.

2) Why should secular Jews oppose multi-cult if the white gentile elite also actively promotes multi-cult?

White gentiles have no right to criticize Jews for supporting policies that are also supported by elite white gentiles.

It's absurd that anti-semites feel elite Jews are supposed to be more pro-gentile white than the gentiles.

The gentile elite in Sweden, Britain, France, and the rest of Western Europe hasn't exactly been leading the charge against diversity.

Until elite white gentiles stop advocating the exact same policies as Jews, anti-semites have grounds to claim Jews are pursuing an agenda that is out of whack with the agenda of other elite whites.

3) You still have not explained the most obvious and glaring problem with the hypothesis that elite liberal Jews have covert ethnic motivations against whites: How Jewish liberalism can serve an Jewish ethnic agenda against whites when the most ethnocentric Jews, the Orthodox, Russian immigrant and Israeli Ashkenazi immigrants, are *more* politically aligned with the policies that serve white political interests at rates higher than the gentile average?

If multi-cult serves Jewish anti-white motivations, then why aren't the three most ethnically attuned Ashkenazi groups in America also in favor of multi-cult and liberalism??

Until anti-semites explain why the most ethnocentric Jews don't support liberalism then the conclusion is Jews don't support liberalism because of an ethnic agenda, they support it because they are assimilated into Western elite social norms.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

anti-semites have grounds to claim Jews are pursuing an agenda that is out of whack with the agenda of other elite whites.

should be

anti-semites no have grounds to claim Jews are pursuing an agenda that is out of whack with the agenda of other elite whites.

[DaveinHackensack]

Asdf has a point, TUJ.

That he can make his so pithily while you require a multi-point attempted rebuttal suggests you doth protest too much. If Jews' overriding fear is the rise of a Nazi-like movement in the US turning a racial majority against them, then their support for third world immigration makes sense. That's true even if it would bring in groups hostile to Jews, under the idea that it's worth risking a few sporadic attacks than risking a genocide with the machinery of the state behind it as in Nazi Germany.

The Jewish political position that could be considered inconsistent with Asdf's comment is gun control, but the line of thinking there may be to use diversity to prevent the rise of American Nazism and then use gun control to ameliorate the danger of the diversity.

[The Legendary Linda]

"If multi-cult serves Jewish anti-white motivations, then why aren't the three most ethnically attuned Ashkenazi groups in America also in favor of multi-cult and liberalism??"

I don't think anyone here is saying Jews are anti-white, or even uniquely ethnocentric, they just don't want to see another holocaust, and neither does any ethical compassionate person Add to that the superior moral development (related to high IQ) and it makes sense that they support multiculturalism.

As for the most ethnocentric Jews being anti-multi culture; these tend to have lower IQ's than the brilliant liberal Jews, so despite being ethnocentric, they lack the insight to know what's in their ethnic interest. And since lower iQ folks are less moral and abstract, the ethical arguments for multiple-culture don't persuade them

[asdf]

TUJ,

If Jews were some kind of hive mind pursuing a long term strategy rationally then your correct. However, they are not. Given the incentives individual Jews have (which is the same as everyone else, to embrace PC) and given the thing on every Jews mind is the Holocaust and not decades later effects of immigration long after they are dead it is not surprising that this ends up being the strategy Jews end up pursing in aggregate.

As you note, those Jews that do think generations ahead and do think of Jews as a whole rather then as individuals know its a bad strategy.

[Just Speculating]

"As for the most ethnocentric Jews being anti-multi culture; these tend to have lower IQ's than the brilliant liberal Jews, so despite being ethnocentric, they lack the insight to know what's in their ethnic interest".

It's a contention between the Jewish Prole vs the Jewish SWPL. We all know by now that Proles have lower IQs and tend to vote Republican with their boring tendencies.

[Conquistador]

"Yes, because multi-cult societies have historically been SO very stable and safe, right? No wars, no ethnic cleansing!" - IHTG

Stability is unrelated to social order. Multicultural societies have a lot of social order and less stability. Caste systems, VIP cultures, and big man dictatorships are popular in those places.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"If Jews' overriding fear is the rise of a Nazi-like movement in the US turning a racial majority against them, then their support for third world immigration makes sense."

"Jews mind is the Holocaust and not decades later effects of immigration long after they are dead it is not surprising that this ends up being the strategy"

Jews aren't pursuing a strategy to increase immigration because polls of the total Jewish poulation show Jews DON"T support immigration.

And Jewish groups don't support immigration as actively as other groups like Big Agriculture and the Catholic Church.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"That he can make his so pithily"

His comment is based on lies: Jews don't support immigration in polls and the most group oriented Jews don't support it.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"If Jews' overriding fear is the rise of a Nazi-like movement in the US turning a racial majority against them, then their support for third world immigration makes sense."

1) You're lying. Jews don't support immigration (I and Sigma have posted data on this before).

Put up poll numbers to show Jews support immigration or give up the point.

2) Orthodox Jews, Israeli, and Russian Jews also worry about persecution, but that doesn't cause them to support liberalism.

Identifying as Jewish also causes non-Orthodox and non-immigrant Jewish Americans to support conservatism depending on how strongly they identify as Jewish. Notice, for example, that unlike most American Jews, conservative talk show hosts like Mike Levin and Dennis Praeger attend Synagogue weekly.

If Jewish liberalism is caused by seeing a threat to the group why aren't the 4 most groupish Jews think multicult is good at preventing another Holocaust?

Unless you can explain why the four most clannish Jews, e.g. Orthodox, FSU immigrant, Israeli immigrant, and established ethnocentric American Jews like Michael Levin, are also the most conservative and why the least ethnocentric Jews (such as former member of the anti-semitic Hungarian Arrow Cross, George Soros) are the most liberal, then the conclusion must be that liberal Jews are liberal because of a LACK of concern for Jewish solidarity.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"but the line of thinking there may be to use diversity to prevent the rise of American Nazism"

Then why don't ethnocentric Jews support gun control? Ethnocentric Jews have as much reason to fear a rise of American Nazism as non-ethnocentric Jews because the Nazis targeted all Jews (even Middle Eastern ones).

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"given the thing on every Jews mind is the Holocaust"

Same question to asdf: then why aren't the four ethnocentric Jewish groups also adopting liberalism out fear of a second Holocaust?

Do they think only assimilated Jews were targeted for extermination in the Holocaust?

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"That he can make his so pithily while you require a multi-point attempted rebuttal"

I didn't know a few points (which you and asdf have failed to satisfactorily respond to) was beyond your cognitive powers.

If my points have no substance, then you shouldn't have a problem refutting them, especially the biggest problem with asdf's hyptothesis: Why are the most clannish Jews the most conservative?

[The Undiscovered Jew]

Again, surveys of Jews and immigration show the Jews don't support immigration:

http://cis.org/ReligionAndImmigrationPoll

In contrast to many religious leaders, most members think immigration is too high.

Jews: 50 percent said it is too high; 5 percent said is too low; 22 percent just right.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/10/12/2741253/poll-jewish-support-for-obama-falling

The survey asked its Jewish respondents: “A new law in Arizona gives police the power to ask people they’ve stopped to verify their residency status. Supporters say this will help crack down on illegal immigration. Opponents say it could violate civil rights and lead to racial profiling. On balance, do you support or oppose this law?”

The result was a slim majority in favor of the law: 52 percent to 46 percent.

2) The most ethnocentric American Jews, the Russian Jews, support keeping America white and, like ethnocentric Orthodox Jews, vote 3 to 1 Republican.

Jewish ethnocentrism = pro-white and conservative

Jewish assimilation into elite liberal gentile norms = Jewish liberalism:

http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/63785/what-a-country/

Lurking behind these much-discussed reasons for Russian Jewish conservatism is the fact of deeply ingrained Russian xenophobia, which some say the nation’s Jews have internalized despite being an oppressed group themselves. This, say some, makes them more susceptible to the racial dog whistles employed by conservative politicians. Weeks before the 2008 election, Walter Ruby reported for the Jewish Week that he did not have to search Brighton Beach very hard before finding Russian-speaking Jews who subscribed to a Sarah Palin’s view of the United States; one real, one fake; one implicitly white, one not. “The president of such a great country ought to be a real American, by which I mean a white person,” one respondent told Ruby.

[Matt]

I wouldn't say that liberal Jews are necessarily non-ethnocentric and don't care about Jews.

You can be a liberal Jew and support liberalism because you care about Jews and think that liberalism is actually good for Jews.

Here's an example of this from Paul Krugman:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/bad-for-the-jews/

"One thing I thought Jews were supposed to understand is that they need to be advocates of universal rights, not just rights for their particular group — because it’s the right thing to do, but also because, ahem, there aren’t enough of us. We can’t afford to live in a tribal world."

[HS: Paul Krugman doesn't speak for Jews, he speaks for the liberal elite.]

[Matt]

"[HS: Paul Krugman doesn't speak for Jews, he speaks for the liberal elite.]"

That's the point. An Orthodox Jew who is conservative doesn't speak for all Jews either.

Both liberal and conservative Jews can believe that liberalism and conservatism respectively are good for Jews. It isn't the case that liberal Jews necessarily don't care about Jews. Krugman believes liberalism is good for Jews. A conservative Jew might think Krugman is wrong and that liberalism is bad for Jews.

[DaveinHackensack]

TUJ,

"I didn't know a few points (which you and asdf have failed to satisfactorily respond to) was beyond your cognitive powers."

Your puerility and hostility in response to civil comments is another sign of the weakness of your case, as is your use of the "spread" tactic ( http://falkenblog.blogspot.com/2012/09/economists-love-spread.html ). Regarding the 3 points you mentioned in the comment I responded to:

1) ["There's no advantage to avoiding persecution by whites only to be persecuted by politically irritable non-whites..."]

My comment addressed this directly:

"If Jews' overriding fear is the rise of a Nazi-like movement in the US turning a racial majority against them, then their support for third world immigration makes sense. That's true even if it would bring in groups hostile to Jews, under the idea that it's worth risking a few sporadic attacks than risking a genocide with the machinery of the state behind it as in Nazi Germany. "

2) ["Why should secular Jews oppose multi-cult if the white gentile elite also actively promotes multi-cult?"].

Irrelevant. The question is about Jews' motivations; not about the actions of gentile elites.

3) ["You still have not explained the most obvious and glaring problem with the hypothesis that elite liberal Jews have covert ethnic motivations against whites: How Jewish liberalism can serve an Jewish ethnic agenda against whites when the most ethnocentric Jews, the Orthodox, Russian immigrant and Israeli Ashkenazi immigrants, are *more* politically aligned with the policies that serve white political interests at rates higher than the gentile average?"]

First, neither I nor Asdf said Jews had an anti-white agenda; in fact, Asdf explicitly rejected that in a subsequent comment:

"I don't think anyone here is saying Jews are anti-white, or even uniquely ethnocentric, they just don't want to see another holocaust"

I agree completely with that.

Now, you do raise an interesting question about why Russian immigrant Orthodox and Israeli immigrants aren't in favor of expanding 3rd world immigration (I wouldn't go so far as to say the Orthodox are anti multi-cult, as they exemplify aspects of it -- e.g., self-segregation, not assimilating, etc.). Here's my hypothesis: the Holocaust is further in the rear view mirror for these Jews than for most American Jews. The "ism" that oppressed Russian Jews far more recently was Communism, and like most recent immigrants from formerly Communist countries, they tend to be conservative.

Similarly, Israeli Jews have had a more recent proximate existential threat in their Arab neighbors.

Another difference between Russian and Israeli Jews and American Jews is experiences with Germany. A number of Russian Jews have emigrated to Germany in recent years, and Israel has had close commercial, diplomatic, and cultural ties with Israel. Israelis and Russian Jews are probably more likely to have met modern Germans, realized they aren't inherently scary and evil. And, by extension, neither are American gentiles.

[DaveinHackensack]

TUJ,

"1) You're lying. Jews don't support immigration (I and Sigma have posted data on this before)."

Again with the hostility. Is the only possibility that I am lying? If memory serves, the poll data showed a slim majority (something slightly over 50%) of American Jews supporting immigration restrictions today. On a relatively basis, that would still make Jews more pro-immigration than gentile American whites.

And, of course, elite Jews overwhelmingly support third world immigration.

"2) Orthodox Jews, Israeli, and Russian Jews also worry about persecution, but that doesn't cause them to support liberalism."

Addressed in my previous comment.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Given the incentives individual Jews have (which is the same as everyone else, to embrace PC) and given the thing on every Jews mind is the Holocaust and not decades later effects of immigration long after they are dead it is not surprising that this ends up being the strategy Jews end up pursing in aggregate.

As you note, those Jews that do think generations ahead and do think of Jews as a whole rather then as individuals know its a bad strategy."

This still doesn't salvage your argument.

Liberal policies bring *immediate* and noticeable negative effects, not just long term ones.

Voting for liberal politicians and policies results in immediate problems for Jews of all types such as higher taxes, more black crime, fewer neighborhoods and cities to live in, and fewer good schools for Jews to send their kids to which, in turn, reduces secular Jewish fertility because of rising housing prices, etc.

Given the fact the effects of liberal policies generally have immediate negative effects on Jewish standards of living then how does you explain the fact that the least ethnocentric Jews support liberalism and the most ethnocentric support conservatism if BOTH groups suffer immediate and obvious negative effects of liberal policies?

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Your puerility and hostility in response to civil comments"

You expect comments that - depending on whether you knew about poll data on Jewish attitudes toward immigration or not - were either deceptive or uninformed to be treated with respect?

"is another sign of the weakness of your case, as is your use of the "spread" tactic ( http://falkenblog.blogspot.com/2012/09/economists-love-spread.html )."

The hardship...

Your accusations had multiple logical and factual flaws in your argument and you, as the one making accusations, should expect to be challenged on your points. Bringing up three points ought not to be such an insurmountable challenge if your case is strong.

"My comment addressed this directly:

"If Jews' overriding fear is the rise of a Nazi-like movement in the US turning a racial majority against them, then their support for third world immigration makes sense."

And my poll addressed your point: Jews don't support increased immigration:

http://cis.org/ReligionAndImmigrationPoll

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/10/12/2741253/poll-jewish-support-for-obama-falling

"2) ["Why should secular Jews oppose multi-cult if the white gentile elite also actively promotes multi-cult?"]."

Irrelevant. The question is about Jews' motivations; not about the actions of gentile elites."

Quite relevant, actually.

Elite gentile attitudes toward immigration influence elite Jewish motivations because elite Jews socialize a lot with elite gentiles. Since social environment influences political opinion then elite Jews supporting immigration is not necessarily evidence of different motivations because elite gentiles ALSO support the *exact* same immigration policies as elite Jews.

If there's no pressure from elite gentiles on elite Jews to support immigration restriction (remind us which elite gentiles oppose immigration? Warren Buffet? Bush 1 & 2?) then there's no environmental reason for elite Jews to rethink their position.

Why should elite Jews be more pro-white than gentile elites?

"Now, you do raise an interesting question about why Russian immigrant Orthodox and Israeli immigrants aren't in favor of expanding 3rd world immigration (I wouldn't go so far as to say the Orthodox are anti multi-cult, as they exemplify aspects of it -- e.g., self-segregation, not assimilating, etc.). Here's my hypothesis: the Holocaust is further in the rear view mirror for these Jews than for most American Jews.

...

Another difference between Russian and Israeli Jews and American Jews is experiences with Germany. A number of Russian Jews have emigrated to Germany in recent years, and Israel has had close commercial, diplomatic, and cultural ties with Israel."

That doesn't explain Orthodox Jewish American political opinion because few Orthodox Jews are recent immigrants. Most Orthodox are descended from the Great Wave immigration of a century ago and not the collapse of the Soviets or Israel.

Since the Orthodox Jews and secular liberal Jews have been here for roughly the same amount of time and because Orthodox Jews are much more conservative than liberal secular Jews, how can Jewish liberalism be explained by ethnocentric motivations?

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Again with the hostility. Is the only possibility that I am lying?"

I've posted this poll data multiple times on this blog and you either have never seen the poll data before (which suggests you're making accusations without doing basic research) or that you deliberately ignored evidence because it contradicts your hypothesis:

http://cis.org/ReligionAndImmigrationPoll

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/10/12/2741253/poll-jewish-support-for-obama-falling

"If memory serves, the poll data showed a slim majority (something slightly over 50%) of American Jews supporting immigration restrictions today."

It showed that 5 percent of Jews wanted more immigration, 22 percent felt current levels were good. The remainder were either opposed more immigration or were unsure.

"On a relatively basis, that would still make Jews more pro-immigration than gentile American whites."

You and asdf didn't say Jews were *relatively* more pro-immigration than whites; you said Jews support third world immigration, i.e., that a *majority* of Jews support immigration strongly:

"then their support for third world immigration makes sense."

"And, of course, elite Jews overwhelmingly support third world immigration."

Again, elite Jews, in contrast to Jews overall, are under NO social pressure from elite gentiles to change their minds.

If elite gentile policies are the same then how do you conclude elite Jewish motivations differ from gentile elites?

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Both liberal and conservative Jews can believe that liberalism and conservatism respectively are good for Jews. It isn't the case that liberal Jews necessarily don't care about Jews."

Gentile SWPLs wouldn't score a zero on a test of ethnocentrism. The score would be low, but there would still be some ethnocentrism to pick up. So sure there's some concern about Jewish peoplehood even among the liberal Jews.

But it's obvious liberal Jews are far less ethnocentric than conservative Jews. If ethnocentrism correlates positively with Jewish conservatism then it's hard to see how the hypothesis liberal Jews are primarily motivated by ethnocentrism and have very different motivations than elite gentiles withstands scrutiny.

"[HS: Paul Krugman doesn't speak for Jews, he speaks for the liberal elite.]"

Who is more ethnocentric: Krugman or conservative radiohost Mark Levin?

[Ryan]

I wouldn't say liberal American Jews don't care about Jews or Israel.

The majority of American Jews are social liberals who support Israel. Most American Jews just don't see a big enough difference between the Dems and the GOP on Israel to justify support for Romney.

Here is polling data showing this:

http://www.ajc.org/site/c.ijITI2PHKoG/b.8073031/k.A48E/2012_Survey_of_American_Jewish_Opinion_Highlights.htm

"58 percent of American Jews approve of the way President Obama is handling the U.S.-Israel relationship. Support for Prime Minister Netanyahu is even higher on this issue, with 70 percent of American Jews saying they have a favorable opinion of the way his government is handling the U.S.-Israel relationship."

"The Iranian nuclear program concerns the vast majority of American Jews: 89 percent are very (56 percent) or somewhat (33 percent) concerned about it. Only 11 percent say they are not too concerned or not concerned at all.

Sixty-two percent of American Jews approve of the way President Obama is handling this issue, and 60 percent say the Democratic Party is more likely than the Republican Party to make the right decisions in dealing with the Iranian nuclear program.

Over half (56 percent) of American Jews believe it is unlikely that a combination of diplomacy and sanctions can stop Iran from developing nuclear weapons.

Almost two-thirds (64 percent) of American Jews say that, if diplomacy and sanctions fail, they would support the U.S. taking military action against Iran to prevent it from developing nuclear weapons. Three-quarters (75 percent) would support Israel taking such action if diplomacy and sanctions fail."

"Large majorities of American Jews say the Democratic Party is more likely than the Republican Party to make the right decisions in dealing with church-state issues (75 percent) and the abortion issue (81 percent).

Overall, 69 percent of American Jews approve of the way President Obama is handling national security, and 60 percent believe that the Democratic Party is more likely than the Republican Party to make the right decisions on national security issues. However, among the 26 percent of Jews who cite national security as one of their top three issue priorities in the 2012 election, only 52 percent say the Republican Party is more likely to make the right decisions regarding national security."

"71 percent of American Jews agree with the statement, "Caring about Israel is a very important part of my being a Jew.""

[gene willis]

voting while black.voting while being a woman.voting for the socialist party.thats what people in this country have done or will do.obama,the rightful ruler of this third world.the war birds of patriots will draw near.i will not fallow a dectator or thiere minions.i took an oath to protect and defend the constitution.