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November 24, 2012

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"But unfortunately, the elite Jews of the Upper West Side look like they went as strongly for Obama as the prole Jews of Brooklyn went for Romney"
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Why wouldn't they? Between putting yet another Jewish woman on the Supreme Court, hiring a Jewish man as his chief of staff (before fixing the Chicago mayoral election for him), hiring another Jewish man as his chief political advisor plus all the Israeli butt-kissing, it's been a good four years for the Chosen.

[HS: I suspect that no Jews out of the millions of Jews who voted, voted for the reason you say. That's not how liberal Jews think. If any Jews voted Obama because of his appointments, it was probably Hillary Clinton they liked.

The Jews who care about the future of Israel, they all voted for Romney.]

I honestly have trouble voting for Republicans when they push things like this: http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/268927-smiths-high-skilled-immigration-bill-to-be-taken-up-by-house-next-week

On most principles I align with Republicans, but they seem so invested in pushing cheap labor I often think Democrats would be better for my self interest.

It seems like the more Jewish Jews are, the more they side with the party of Christians. And the more secular Jews are, the more they vote Democrat.

I wonder if Kevin MacDonald will write about this.

There are good reasons to vote against (and therefore for) both parties. Im not sure you've ever laid out the a good case why democratic policies are any worse than republican ones that turn the country into a corporatist plutocracy.

I remember reading about the Hasidic black magic ritual against Obama, too funny. We should inform them that the nature of the times are practical, especially given that the developed world is one built on a foundation of scientific progress, and Israel is a large contributor to it.

This was also a comment from another posting, but I can't help but mention it, waiting five hours in line just to save $20 on a $30 DVD player is ridiculous. I know that the risk vs. reward of Black Friday makes it not worth the "deals", but DVD players are already obsolete given that they come standard with computer disk readers (not only reading, but burning DVDs is a basic feature). Not to mention Blue Ray players and gaming consoles have DVD functionality within them. As long as they limit their children's gaming time it shouldn't be too much of a problem.


I never liked Romney, at all. He laid off half the Massachusetts public work force, making him the opposite of a job creator, and grossly mismanaged the Big Dig. As president of Bain he raided small businesses that were having trouble and liquidated them. Companies purchased by Bain also saw massive outsourcing. Romney may be a business genius (though overall I estimate his IQ to be approximately 120 with a standard deviation of 15), but that doesn't mean he will use that capability to balance the budget or help the people in any way. Instead, he'll likely use it to help his friends in big oil and other industries. People are typically self-interested and self-seeking, and the rich are certainly no exception by any means.

Hitler (I personally estimate his IQ to be around 140) was a genius, but this combined with his sociopathic, power hungry tendencies made him very dangerous. Instead of benefiting humanity he invaded other countries and engaged in mass murder on an industrial scale.

I'm not saying Romney is as extreme as Hitler by any means, but am merely demonstrating that he has a history of using said intelligence to scam others. Also, keep in mind that small business owners aren't exactly payday loan morons, so it can be ascertained that Romney was employing some sophisticated methods that not only involved the actual process of raiding the company, but doing so in a way that maintains his "trustworthy" image to ensure he'll liquidate other companies in the future.

We need a third party, one that is actually concerned about the unemployment rate and doesn't somehow blame the government for it, environmental issues, technological progress even if that results in killing the coal and oil industries, problem of expanding suburbia, overpopulation, and the negative effects of immigration on society.

Regarding overpopulation, even initiating an international effort as it's a global problem that effects everyone would work. More people equal more competition for resources, which become increasingly scarce with consumption, the rate of which accelerates, as there are more people. Arable land and clean drinking water (Israel is at the forefront of desalination technology) are being used up a little too fast, especially since we consume approximately one and a half Earths per year, so we consume much faster than the Earth can produce.

"But unfortunately, the elite Jews of the Upper West Side look like they went as strongly for Obama as the prole Jews of Brooklyn went for Romney".

This is obvious. All the Jewish lemmings who live in the boring prole areas voted for Romney. This is of course means all of them DO NOT live in elitist SWPL infested Manhattan, which is the most exciting and prestigious borough of NYC. Now that we know SWPLs and Proles aren't fond of each other thanks to HS, we can safely say that NYC is a tale of 3 cites. SWPL vs NAM, SWPL vs Prole, & Prole vs NAM.

"the prole Jews of Brooklyn went for Romney"

Is it really accurate to label them prole?

The most expensive homes in Brooklyn are in the Sephardic areas in Gravesend. (More expensive than Brooklyn Heights)

I know there's more to class than money. But there isn't anything else that's especially prole about most of them.

You sound silly when you try to fit people into Paul Fussel's class descriptions when they don't apply.

Well, since it's estimated that 20% of Jews under the age of five are ultraorthodox (and growing), this is good news for the Republicans.

"Hitler (I personally estimate his IQ to be around 140) was a genius"

140 iq (probably a right estimation) is gifted but not genius.

"I know there's more to class than money. But there isn't anything else that's especially prole about most of them".

The Sephardics in Brooklyn are less polished than the Manhattan Jews who have Ivy League degrees and work in BIGLAW/Wall St. They're wealthy because they've made it big as retail salesmen and not because of a high paying white collar job. If that's not prolish, then what is?

Wealthy proles also tend to like big homes and mansions.

I wouldn't want to vote for a guy (Romney) who belongs to the same party as a ton of anti-semites and racists like Sarah Palin, Lindsay Graham, or Glenn Beck.

The Orthodox are too religious. :( There are quite a lot of good things in secular jewish culture. I applaud those who voted Obama.

Notice that the NYT didn't even mention Staten Island, even though it looks like Romney did wel, and may have come close to winning the borough as a whole.

Just Speculating,

Guess who else "doesn't have Ivy League degrees and work in BIGLAW/Wall St", over 99% of the US population. Are they all proles?

"They're wealthy because they've made it big as retail salesmen and not because of a high paying white collar job. If that's not prolish, then what is?"

I dunno, according to Half Sigma and Paul Fussell - legible clothing, working as a plumber or truck driver. Being a cashier in a retail store as opposed owning the retail chain.

Having white collar Ashkenazi Jews work for you.... probably not prole.
"The community’s major institutions tend to be administered by [Ashkenazi Jews] like David Greenfield — experienced professionals willing, unlike most SY’s, to do white-collar work for hire."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/magazine/14syrians-t.html?pagewanted=all

This isn't rocket science.


@ AlexS

The Sephardics in Gravesend work in retail sales, food distribution and lower end real estate. Those are the kind of jobs that don't require college degrees and aren't all that sexy. THAT's prolish (not prole) compared to the Manhattan Ashkenazis elite who work in BIGLAW, Wall St Hedge Funds, major healthcare and academia.

"Guess who else "doesn't have Ivy League degrees and work in BIGLAW/Wall St", over 99% of the US population. Are they all proles?"

Prole definitely means working class and prolish means lower end (something that isn't exactly SWPL territory or prestigious). For example, someone who graduates from a top liberal institution puts them into SWPL territory. Someone who comes from a public college is prolish. Someone from the Ivy League is always considered defacto SWPL.

Another way to identify if your White collar position is prolish or SWPL is the clientele that it attracts. Are your clients proles or worse, NAMs? Or are they SWPL?

Ambulance chasers (Personal Injury Lawyers) and Criminal Lawyers are usually prolish. It's usually some prole or NAM who gets hurt in some traffic accident seeking damages or gets into a crime and needs an attorney. Compared that to the BIGLAW guys whose clients they are representing, which are usually major corporations.

Regarding education, yes, by definition going to a prestigious university makes one higher class.

Take two Jews.

The first went to a prestigious school, for example Berkeley, where they spent their twenties studying all sorts of liberal non-sense.

The second is an Orthodox Jew, who studied Talmudic non-sense in a yeshiva.

Both are on food stamps.

Who’s higher class?

The answer to this class puzzle is obvious, but shows how silly these rules can be when applied to real world examples.

@ Just Speculating

“THAT's prolish (not prole)”

I see, so prolish doesn’t necessarily mean prole. The blog post did say “prole Jews of Brooklyn” which I didn’t think was an accurate label for over half a million people.

I don’t dispute the fact that the average Brooklynite is lower class than the average Manhattanite, Jew or non-Jew. The average Manhattan resident is higher class than the average non-Manhattan resident, does this mean we should lump all 300 million non-Manhattanites together and call them proles?

“compared to the Manhattan Ashkenazis elite who work in BIGLAW, Wall St Hedge Funds, major healthcare and academia.”

So you’re comparing elite Ashkenazis with average Sephardics?

What percent of Jews, even Manhattan Jews, work in BIGLAW or Wall Street Hedge funds?
As for “work in retail sales… and lower end real estate” and clientele-

Proles shop in Wal-Mart, but that doesn’t make the Walton family proles.

The NYT article I linked to above mentioned Joe Sitt who “made his own money with Ashley Stewart, a line of upscale clothing marketed to plus-size African-American women. Since then, he has branched out. His company, Thor Equities, is currently engaged in a controversial effort to buy up most of Coney Island and recreate it as a modern entertainment district.”

Theoretically selling clothes to fat black women is less prestigious than working in BIGLAW, but in this particular case would you rather be Joe Sitt or the Ivy League grad BigLaw shmucks who work for him?

Yes obviously the average Jew in Brooklyn is not as successful as Joe Sitt.

[HS: THere's prole Brooklyn or what I have previously called "Belt Parkway Brooklyn" becuase it encompasses the areas near the Belt Parkway (look at a Google map if you're not familiar). And then there's NAM Brooklyn. And finally, there is SWPL Brooklyn which includes areas like Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope and NORTH Williamsburg (south Williamsburg is Hasidic). Jews in SWPL Brooklyn voted very strongly for Obama. Jews in Belt Parkway Brooklyn voted very strongly for Romney. It's a very stark divide.]

"The answer to this class puzzle is obvious, but shows how silly these rules can be when applied to real world examples".

The Orthodox guy is unpolished, just like any Yeshiva student I've encountered. That makes him prolish because of his restrictive educational background from a less prestigious institution (studied the Talmud in a Yeshiva). The Berkeley Liberal Arts Jew is genteel (SWPL), at least he should be, because of his Liberal Arts training from a top school is supposed to bring out the worldly and gentlemanly qualities in him.

Much of the SWPL population would rather live a life of involuntary poverty than to be prolishly employed (engage in work that is beneath them). This goes to show you that SWPLs are all about prestige.

[HS: There are a lot of valid reasons why you don't want to do blue collar jobs, even if they pay the same or more.]

"What percent of Jews, even Manhattan Jews, work in BIGLAW or Wall Street Hedge funds?
As for “work in retail sales… and lower end real estate” and clientele-

Proles shop in Wal-Mart, but that doesn’t make the Walton family proles."

I say the Walton family are prolish (not prole), because their business caters to the lower end of the population. I think most of us would rather be in the shoes of the late Steve Jobs (Apple caters mostly to SWPLs) than the Waltons of Walmart. Per HS, Apple is very successful because they are able to lure spendthrift SWPLs (a very exclusive population) to pay top dollar for their products, unlike Walmart where they have to sell in bulk to the swarms of proles and NAMs to be on the same level.

Regarding Joe Sitt - "Theoretically selling clothes to fat black women is less prestigious than working in BIGLAW, but in this particular case would you rather be Joe Sitt or the Ivy League grad BigLaw shmucks who work for him?"

Again, Apple is the epitome of a successful big business. Caters to an exclusive SWPL population that is educated with deep pockets, or at least trying to dig deeper.

"Thor Equities"

Sound prole or prolish to me. No SWPL will brand his business with "Thor". LOL....

Just as most Manhattan Ashkenazi are not BIGLAW partners or hedge fund managers, most buyers of Apple products are not SWPL's.

"Just as most Manhattan Ashkenazi are not BIGLAW partners or hedge fund managers, most buyers of Apple products are not SWPL's".

More than you think.

Apple is definitely "stuff white people like".

If you are referring to the older Jewish proles who live in rent controlled apts in Manhattan, there are still many of them around.

Anyone under the age of 40, who is Jewish and lives in Manhattan is a SWPL for the most part. Most of them are graduates from the various prestigious left leaning colleges. Either their expenses are funded by their parents, supplemented with some liberal creative career that underpays, or they are in one of the high paying professions such as law, finance or medicine in a respected institution which would support their Manhattan lifestyle. Furthermore, these kind of scenarios also apply to White gentiles and to a certain extent, Asians.

I am a conventional church-going Sunday School teacher who happens to live in Brooklyn. In my business life I deal w/ Orthodox Jews. One guy told me that he likes working w/ me becuase he has more in common w/ me than he has w/ secular Jews.

This voting pattern confirms that. And, of course, as has been well-documented, the Orthodox are rising as a percent of Jews. I wouldn't be surprised if that same birth-rate differential is also happening w/ Christians, but at a much slower rate. With the Jews, you have SWPL Jews who have one child, and Orthodox who have at least ten (not exaggerated). With Christians, it may be that the religious have three children, and the secular have two.

Manhattan is the most important place on earth. It might not be the most educated or wealthiest, maybe after Hong Kong Island or Singapore, but it's still the center of the universe.

Barack Obama won every precinct in Manhattan. That's a problem for the GOP considering it's wealth and it's 84% white demographics.

Sephardi Jews don't score so high on IQ tests. Israel's average on the Ravens was less than 90.

Rich Sephardic Jews sounds like maybe they're greedy?

@HalfSigma

“ There's prole Brooklyn or what I have previously called "Belt Parkway Brooklyn" ... Jews in Belt Parkway Brooklyn voted very strongly for Romney. It's a very stark divide.”

I am familiar with southern Brooklyn and I agree it’s a stark divide. I just don’t think it’s a very accurate to describe the Jews in that area as proles.

Most people would understand prole to mean proletariat/ working class. There are some Hasidic truck drivers and Soviet Immigrant electricians, but most are not working class. They are more likely to be computer programmers, accountants, dentists, small business owners.

That’s not prole. Ordinarily that would be considered middle class, but they don’t imitate the upper-middle class like the American middle classes.

They don’t fit neatly into Fussell’s categories and I think the reason for that is that they’re not really part of mainstream American culture.

There’s no need to stick to Fussell's rules when common sense tells us they don’t apply.

@Just Speculating

“I say the Walton family are prolish (not prole), because their business caters to the lower end of the population”

And I say the investment bankers and BigLaw partners are “proleish-ish,” because they serve people like the Waltons/Sitt and their companies. It’s fun making up words!

“Anyone under the age of 40, who is Jewish and lives in Manhattan is a SWPL for the most part. Most of them are graduates from the various prestigious left leaning colleges. … these kind of scenarios also apply to White gentiles and to a certain extent, Asians.”

Yes, everyone on these kind of blogs is always going on about the Jewish liberal elite. To what extent is their liberalness due to Jewiness as opposed to a desire to assimilate to post WW2 Manhattan liberal elite?

Arguably, the various kinds of Jews of southern Brooklyn are more authentically Jewy in that by their religion/culture/profession they more closely resemble Jews throughout history. They look and act like they just crawled out of a shit factory in Minsk.

[And no that doesn’t make them proles- they OWNED that shit factory]

Some precincts going 90% Romney does not mean the Orthodox as a whole vote that way. This poll has a rather small sample of Orthodox Jews, but they split Obama over Romney 48 to 44.
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2012/11/unbelievable-majority-of-orthodox-jews.html
Kiryas Joel supposedly went from giving Obama 7% in 2008 to 42% in 2012, still with a Romney majority. But they're Satmar and have very different attitudes about Israel.

@ Jan Smuts,

Most Israeli Sephardim are really Mizrahim, of Middle Eastern origin with no ancestral connection to Iberia.

@ AlexS

"And I say the investment bankers and BigLaw partners are “proleish-ish,” because they serve people like the Waltons/Sitt and their companies. It’s fun making up words!"

They also serve Apple, Google, Amazon and many other SWPLish companies.

There's nothing wrong with being prolish and having a lot of money. Joe Plumber with his business could afford to live in Manhattan if he chooses to because he makes a lot. He just has a different mentality from the SWPLs whose toilets he fixes in their small elitist pads.

SWPLs are all about prestige and developing a superiority complex. They would rather share a Manhattan apartment with some roommates than to live in a mansion out in some wasteland.

"Most Israeli Sephardim are really Mizrahim, of Middle Eastern origin with no ancestral connection to Iberia".

They aren't that many real Sephardim out there. Most have been absorbed into other populations. Ask an non Ashkenazi Jew in Israel if they have any ties to Spain, the answer is usually no. The real Sephardim generally don't live in Israel. Why blame them, when they have ties to nobility and can afford to live in more desirable areas of the West?

I view the Mizrahim as Latinos of the Jewish world. You could say that of the real Sephardim because of their ties to Spain, but they are of upper class, whereas the Mizarhim are the prolish working class similar to American Hispanics.

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